<< I'm afraid you are confusing an operatic style with the traditional lieder style!>> ...
<< an strong operatic sound would be too much for the somber tones of the text!>>

I do not ask for a "strong" operatic sound, nor for an operatic sound at all. I ask for a supported tone, making possible a really floating (and light) vocal and musical line - a perfectly smooth legato, with a light color, not a fragile and constricted one.

BTW, this cycle is really particular, in that he requires :
- - a light tone in its first numbers,
- - then a more operatic sound in the first half of "Im Rhein" and in "Ich grolle nicht",
- - then a light tone again,
- - and a more operatic sound in the last two numbers.

To my ears, DFD live in Salzburg 1956 and Hermann Prey are perfect. Souzay on Decca is a baritone, but shows exactly the same defects as Wunderlich.

It might be very subjective, but even in Lieder, I do not like to feel as if there is nothing going on below the singer's rib cage and diaphragm. OTOH, Van Dam (on Forlane) has the support, but lacks the lightness and evenness of tone.

[...]

Dan Snyder wrote me privately with an interesting argument:
<< As a matter of fact, the thing lies VERY low in the compass of a lyric voice like Wunderlich's>>

I responded :
You are right. In fact, certain Lieder are in the same key in Peters' baritone edition : Allnächtlich im Traume (down to an A!!!), Ich grolle nicht with that final C which is even difficult to sustain for a baritone, and also number 9 to 13.

As to the best Lieder cycle recording ever, I might vote for : DFD, Winterreise, 1952 with Hermann Reuter on Verona.

AZ, Paris.

I accidentally deleted your email address, so I can't send this directly to you, but since several others on the list are interested anyway, it is appropriate to send to the list. I do not mean this as an attack on your opinions, just want to better understand where you're coming from. Wunderlich, nor any other singer doesn't need me to defend him, and this isn't meant as that.

To begin with, as Michael Cocharan, said "maybe we're comparing apples and oranges afterall" and "Vive le difference!" I suspect that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I want to ask a few questions just so I can clarify and make a few points, as well.

I have to admit, however, that I'm stumped. I don't understand how you can say Wunderlich was a fabulous Mozart singer, yet say his tones were unsupported and his tone fragile and constricted. How can he be such a wonderful Mozart singer with those MAJOR vocal flaws?

You also say you ask for a "supported tone, making possible a really floating (and light) vocal and musical line." To me this sounds very much like you want falsetto. Is that what you mean? Surely not, for a falsetto tone is not supported. I don't know how Wunderlich could have been any lighter without coming off of the core of his voice and slipping into falsetto.

I have NEVER heard anyone make the claims about Wunderlich before that you do and have never heard anything even remotely resembling that in any Wunderlich recording. I have listened to the DG and Myto recordings of Dichterliebe hundreds of times each and am totally clueless how/why you feel his tone constricted and/or unsupported. I also have opera and lieder recordings of Wunderlich's and hear no difference of tone quality from one genre to the next. Do you really hear a big difference from one to the other?

Can you please explain? Specific songs, measure numbers would be helpful.

You also comment about "a perfectly smooth legato." Are you saying you don't think Wunderlich sang with a "perfectly smooth legato?"

You also say you think DFD and Prey are perfect. How can this be? I haven't heard the DFD, but I own the Prey. Neither had anything even remotely resembling as good a technique, nor as beautiful a voice as Wunderlich. Both are baritones, and the work is written for tenor. Their timbre is too dark, too baritonal. To my ear, it totally changes the subtlety, beauty, softness and instrospection of the work. On the Prey disk, I am extremely disappointed. I can't remember what other lieder are on the disk, but they sound like a totally different singer. Whereas on those lieder Prey sounds involved, has a beautiful tone and legato, on the Dichterliebe it was as if he was trying to see how uninvolved and how choppy and broken a line he could sing. I have often enjoyed him in other things, so his Dichterliebe was a major disappointment.

As far as DFD, I'm afraid he falls into the category of Callas, Carrerras and late DiStefano as far as I'm concerned. Late on his vocal and technical problems are so legion, and there is such an inconsistency of production, that I can't listen to him for long. Whereas some find his singing expressive due to all his vocal "colors," I find it distracting and distressing. Early on, his voice was more beautiful. I have tried to find the recording you mention, but have been unsuccessful (but haven't really looked all that hard). I would be very interested to hear it, just to hear his interpretation, but I think this work is all wrong for a baritone.

The second best recording I have heard of Dichterliebe (in terms of expression) is Jose Van Dam's recording. His voice is just too dark, however, and I think "Ich grolle nicht" demands the alternate high ending, which he does not do. I have also heard (and own) Aksel Schiotz' recording of this, but don't find it very satisfying at all, but better than Prey's.

Some of the music does lie low for the tenor in this cycle, but I'm sure Schumann deliberately chose these lower keys/tones for color and expression.

I'm curious why you think the first half of "Im Rhein..." requires a more operatic sound. Why? Because of the low tessitura? What exactly do you mean by a more "operatic sound?"

Thanks.
Regards,
Craig Collins

Craig Collins wrote : << I have to admit, however, that I'm stumped. I don't understand how you can say Wunderlich was a fabulous Mozart singer, yet say his tones were unsupported and his tone fragile and constricted. How can he be such a wonderful Mozart singer with those MAJOR vocal flaws?>>

I spoke about ONE recording of ONE work. I did not throw away all of Wunderlich's legacy. Singers are human beings, not almighty gods. They may succeed in one think on a certain day, and fail to achieve some other thing on some other occasion.

<< You also say you ask for a "supported tone, making possible a really floating (and light) vocal and musical line." To me this sounds very much like you want falsetto.>>

Who spoke about apples and oranges?

<< Is that what you mean? Surely not, for a falsetto tone is not supported.>>

A falsetto tone can be either supported or unsupported, just like a chest tone. Falsetto is a different operating mode in your larynx. You don't need to change anything in your breath support to sing in falsetto.

<< I don't know how Wunderlich could have been any lighter without coming off of the core of his voice and slipping into falsetto. >>

WHY should he have been any lighter?

<< am totally clueless how/why you feel his tone constricted and/or unsupported. >>

Now we come to the point : In Lied No.1, the higher notes on "geGANgen" and "geSTANden" (though lower) are, to my ears, constricted. The final "VerLANgen" is better. Why? The song is over, so you can relax! I feel that Wunderlich, when recording this cycle, was a very nervous person. Already on the second "Im wunderschönen Monat Mai", he loses some of his breath control.

What worries me most is the *wobble* we can hear on numerous long notes, especially when they are sung "piano", in the low medium and as final notes.
It is easy to hear in song No.2, also in No.4 on Lust, sprichst, bitterLICH, in No.6 Well'n, SEInem, Coeln, geNAU.

In No.6, to get the "power" that the text requires, he puts too much direct pressure on the notes and on his larynx. Then, he remains "forte" through the second part of the song, while Schumann asks "piano" from "Im Dom...".

In No.7, the "e" in "ewig" are too white, too straightforward. He lacks the dramatic power of this beginning.
At the top of the second page, "nicht" and "Herz" move (wobble). The high end of the song is excellent, though, of course, the final "nicht" is pressed.

In No.9, the high F are not very free on "GEIgen" and "DROEHnen". Since the same problem appeared in No.1 on G, I am not sure where Wunderlich's passaggio lies, and I am not sure that he was very sure either.

At the top of the third page of No.9, the voice is wobbling too, as on No.10's "dunkles Sehnen".

In No.11, the low B flat are excellent, because they are short, so that he does not press them. Same thing in No.14 (low A sharp...).

In No.12, Wunderlich manages to "enter" in the slow rhythm of the piano, so that his long values are quite stable.
Same thing in No.13, except on some final notes such as "bitterLICH".

In No.15, the high notes are strained on the first page, but not on the second nor the third.

The beginning of No.16 is great, with the required "operatic" sound. "Dick" and "Brück" do wobble, but since it is forte, it shows less. "Wisst ihr warum" is wobbling (because "piano", sustained and low!). "Ich senkt'..." is wonderful, since it is higher, so that Wunderlich can use a very soft mezza-voce.

**********

Craig Collins also wrote:

<< You also comment about "a perfectly smooth legato." Are you saying you don't think Wunderlich sang with a "perfectly smooth legato?" >>

If you want a perfect legato, listen to Jose van Dam with Baldwin on Forlane. In n.1, he sings TWO phrases, that's all. It does not mean that he does not breathe inbetween, but musically, he thinks "wider" (or "longer", I don't know how to express it).

His voice is perfectly "on the breath", from the first to the last note.

His vibrato is often slow, but its rate seems to be coordinated with his breath and with each tempo. (His vibrato rate is always a subdivision of each tempo : see Vennard for details and graphics.)
It is not a "nervous" vibrato, but a "calm" one...
Wunderlich's vibrato, in this recording, is at the same time too slow and too "nervous", which always comes from a bad coordination between breath and tone.

Van Dam does not take a breath before "auf goldenem" in No.6, and that is beautiful!

Van Dam has a huge operatic sound in No.7, but can also sing a magnificently supported mezza-voce in No.10 and No.12, and "pianissimo on the breath" on "zerfliesst..." in No.15. BTW, Van Dam sings No.10 in the tenor key, but sounds like one octave darker!

What is awkward in Van Dam's recording is the succession of the keys : it is a strange "mix" between the original and a fourth lower!

Another interesting recording, which I did not mention yet, is Souzay's with Baldwin on Philips, 1960 instead of 1953 on Decca. Inbetween, Souzay has learned how to support his tone! (BTW, that's what he tells during his masterclasses.) I have taken 3 pages of notes while listening to it, but since no Souzay lover or hater has complained yet, I will keep them for some improbable later use!

**********

Craig Collins wrote :

<< You also say you think DFD and Prey are perfect. How can this be? I haven't heard the DFD, but I own the Prey. Neither had anything even remotely resembling as good a technique, nor as beautiful a voice as Wunderlich.>>

Shall I call it subjective?

<< Both are baritones, and the work is written for tenor. Their timbre is too dark, too baritonal. >>

Do you call this a valid argument?

As I have written in a previous post (in the "Transpositions" thread), I have begun to love the baritone version of Dichterliebe. The transposed first Lieder (one tone lower) sound light enough, while "Ich grolle nicht", "Im Rhein" and "Die alten, bösen Lieder" acquire more authority. "Aus alten Märchen" sounds strange in any key!

<< As far as DFD, I'm afraid he falls into the category of Callas, Carrerras and late DiStefano as far as I'm concerned. Late on his vocal and technical problems are so legion, and there is such an inconsistency of production, that I can't listen to him for long. >>

Did you read the year I mentioned? 1956. The only other record by DFD that I mentioned is from year 1952. Of course, we cannot discuss Wunderlich's later years.

<< I have tried to find the recording you mention, but have been unsuccessful >>

It is on Orfeo, C294 921 B, live Festspieldokumente.

<< The second best recording I have heard of Dichterliebe (in terms of expression) is Jose Van Dam's recording. >>

Yes, what a dramatic involvement! (See above!)

<< I think "Ich grolle nicht" demands the alternate high ending, which he does not do.>> DFD does it! I can stand the lower alternative in "Ich grolle nicht", but I find it very strange not to sing the high alternative in No.4.

<< Some of the music does lie low for the tenor in this cycle, but I'm sure Schumann deliberately chose these lower keys/tones for color and expression. >>

... and for a particular singer, I guess!

<< I'm curious why you think the first half of "Im Rhine..." requires a more operatic sound. Why? Because of the low tessitura? What exactly do you mean by a more "operatic sound?" >>

I quoted the word "operatic" from another Vocalister's post. Isn't it self-explanatory? I guess it comes from the word "opera", but English is not my native language, so I am not sure. <g>

When you see a pointed rhythm like in an "ouverture a la francaise", long note values for the singer, comfortable line in the low medium, "f" printed all over the score, words such as "heilig" and "gross", and lots of [o] sounds like in "Strome" or "Dome", you may get the idea that the composer wants something slightly different from the previous Lied ("Ich will meine Seele tauchen").
Furthermore, you need to emphasize the contrast with the second part ("Im Dom..."), which is "p" and, I would had, "legatissimo".

AZ, Paris.